Welcome to the Hope for the Animals Podcast, sponsored by United Poultry Concerns. I’m your host, Hope Bohanec. And you can find all our past episodes by going to our website, HopefortheAnimalsPodcast.org.
This is the eighth installment of a series that we’re calling the Reason for Vegan Series where I am exposing the truth about specific aspects of the animal agriculture industry and answering the question of why we are vegan. In this podcast I’m going to talk about fish, actually in the next two Reason for Vegan Series; I’m going to do a two-parter on fish. This one is going to be on the emotion and the complex life of fish, who they are, the vast scientific data that we now have to prove that they not only feel pain, but they are cognitively complex creatures. In the second part, the Reason for Vegan Series 9, that I will be releasing soon, I’ll go into the fishing industry and how fish are killed, how they suffer in fishing, and how our killing fish is killing the ocean. But in this podcast, I’m focusing on the individual lives of fish and this fascinating world.
So, in my 30 years of activism, I cannot tell you how many times I’ve heard someone say to me, “Well I’m vegetarian,” or even “I’m mostly vegan, but I do eat some fish.” They seem to fall into some “other” category. Not quite vegetable, not quite animal. Well, they are animals, fish are animals, and they’re really the forgotten food animal when it comes to activism. We rarely talk about them as vegan educators. So I want to change that, I want fish to be seen and heard because the science is fascinating and they are thinking, feeling animals.
Fish are our direct evolutionary ancestors. They were the first life on Earth, the original vertebrae animals. Because they’re in the ocean, the fish are more difficult to observe and they seem distant and separate from us. In the water, they don’t really have any need for expressive facial movements or eyelids, or expressive mouths. And because people have very limited imaginations, we think that only beings that are like us could have the same emotions or feelings as us. So fish are often falsely perceived as simple, or unfeeling, or primitive, or unintelligent. But this is really untrue and science is debunking all of that as we speak. There have been two or three decades now of just really amazing science that shows the depths of fish’s lives. And I’ll just say that it’s fine to say “fish” or “fishes,” and I will use them interchangeably.
I got a lot of the information that I’ll be sharing with you today from a book called What A Fish Knows, by Jonathan Balcombe. I highly recommended it. Really in-depth science and observations of fish. And I’ve also been researching this issue for a long time, so there’s a lot of different scientific studies and scientific developments.
The first thing I want to talk about is the myth that fish don’t feel pain. This is simply untrue, but it still, unfortunately, permeates a lot of society, that they really believe fish don’t feel pain.
I want to start with a story. When I was a little girl, we lived in Florida. And my dad was a businessman so, fortunately, we didn’t go fishing often, but he did take me fishing once. I was maybe eight or nine years old, and I remember catching a fish and seeing the distress, just the body convulsions that this poor little being was exhibiting, Obvious distress. And my face must have reflected that distress because I remember my dad telling me, “It’s okay, it’s okay. They don’t feel pain. They don’t feel pain like we do. These are just reflexes that you’re seeing.” And I remember, even at that very young age, thinking to myself, “Wow, dad, I think you’re wrong. Really? It’s not obvious to you that this poor animal is in distress?” But that’s probably what his father told him and his father before him. It’s this myth that has been passed down from generation to generation. And it’s a myth we tell ourselves to justify the horrible things that we do to fish.
Let’s look at the science now and see if fish do feel pain. Both physiologically and behaviorally, fish react to pain, the same as mammals, the same as avians, the same as us. It’s been extensively studied now. Fish have neurons that detect potential harm to their body like high temperature or pressure. When they’re injured, fish produce the same naturally occurring opioids that mammals do to relieve pain. The activity in the brain is equivalent to that of land mammals and avians. There is this cascade of electrical activity that rushes to the brain when they’re injured and not only to the hindbrain and brainstem, which are responsible for reflexes and impulses, but to the regions that are essential for conscious sensory perception, meaning that they are perceiving the pain, they’re feeling the pain, just as we do.
So I’m going to go into some details of studies that have been done on animals, and I want to give a disclaimer here about research and animal experimentation. Myself, and United Poultry Concerns, we certainly do not endorse or condone any kind of experimentation on animals. But since these studies have been conducted already, because the data is there, we are going to use that science and use what was learned to gain empathy and sympathy for these animals so that they won’t be tortured and abused in research in the future. We do want to learn and know as much as we can about these animals and even though we don’t condone the research, since it has been conducted, we are going to use those studies. I wanted to explain that.
Behaviorally, fish react to painful stimuli the same as any other animal. When they are hurt in some way, they will often cease normal activity, they’ll rub the areas that are affected against something, they’ll thrash about, rocking from side to side sometimes, or just lie still at the bottom of their tanks. And when painkillers are introduced, like morphine, and given to the fish, then those behaviors reduce and normal activities resume. The conclusions found across the scientific community are that fish absolutely respond to a varying degree and types of painful stimuli, like burning, cutting, stabbing, or chemical damage like acid. Both psychologically and behaviorally, fish consciously experience pain. And again, I want to say how horrible it was that all of these poor fish had to go through all that they did, I’m not going to get into the details of the pain studies, because it was hard to read, but since these studies were done, we now know and it cannot be disputed that fish feel pain.
And reputable scientific bodies are actually taking notice of this mounting scientific evidence, and have released statements about it. The Smithsonian Institute, I’ll read a quote from them. They said, “The collective evidence is now robust enough that biologists and veterinarians increasingly accept fish pain as a reality.” And in 2013, the American Veterinary Medical Association published their new guidelines for euthanasia of animals, and the statement included this: “Suggestions that finfish respond to pain merely represent simple reflexes have been refuted. The preponderance of accumulated evidence supports the position that finfish should be accorded the same considerations as terrestrial vertebras in regard to relief from pain.” And again, that’s from the American Veterinary Medical Association. That issue has been settled. Fishes feel pain.
Now let’s move on to some other issues, like their lives, their emotions, their relationships, their cognitive abilities, all of these things have been extensively studied. And science has discovered that fish are sentient and aware. They’re communicative and social, they can be virtuous, they can be mischievous, they can use tools and innovate to solve problems, they can solve puzzles. They play, they engage in object play, solitary play, social play with each other, interspecies social play with other species of animals. They have preferences for who they’d like to spend their time with, who they want to partner with. They can be finicky eaters, even among the same species, and have individual tastes for different foods.
There’s a lot we’ve learned about communication with fish and how they communicate with each other. And because fish don’t have ears, for a long time it was assumed that they didn’t hear or really make any noise, and this isn’t the case at all. Because we have ears that detect sound in the air and not in the water, we couldn’t really understand or hear the sounds that fish were making but because of technological advances and underwater sound detecting equipment, we now know that they have a wide range of acoustic sounds that they make. They’re really communicating with each other, and we know that a fish’s body can produce and process sounds. They’re hearing the sounds. Some of the classifications of sound that we have detected now are hums, whistles, thumps, creaks, grunts, pops, croaks, pulses, drums, knocks, purrs, clicks, moans, chirps, buzzes, growls, and snaps. There is a lot of talking going on among fishes.
And parenting, this was fascinating to me, I think that most people believe, and I kind of did too, that fish just lay their eggs and go away and the babies hatch and fend for themselves. And that’s of course, the case for some species, but there are 1000s of species of fish that offer parenting, and protection, and caregiving to the eggs and their offspring in some way. Some fish species do have live births like sharks and stingrays. And egg laying can be extremely complex and there are elaborate ways that they can protect their offspring. Some fish construct all kinds of different nests and shelters with sand, and rock, and plant materials, so certainly using tools. Some fish have special saliva that can create these bubble rafts for their eggs and they protect the eggs and float around while the eggs develop in these little bubble rafts. Some keep their eggs or their hatchlings in their mouths for safety or in special pouches on their bodies. Both genders. So many fish show great parental dedication and go to great lengths to protect the eggs and the babies. Parents that keep their little babies in their mouths, will go weeks, sometimes more, without food. They’re taking in food but they allow the babies to eat the foods and they don’t eat. And they’ll lose a lot of their body weight. Wolf eels mate for life. So wolf eels are these really cool looking big eels and I watched this documentary on Amazon Prime called Big Pacific, and they had this whole segment on the wolf eels and how they choose a partner and they mate for life and they find a little cave and they have all these images of them snuggling together in their cave, all of these little eel couples cuddling and snuggling in their caves, it’s really adorable. So we’re really finding that fish are individuals with awareness and complex emotions.
It’s really a myth that fish have short memories. This is something that is always said of the poor goldfish in a bowl. But it’s just not the case. Fish will often avoid areas where they’ve been attacked by a predator and survived. They’ll avoid that area, sometimes for years. They’ll often have what’s called “hook shyness,” so if they survived being hooked by a hook, a fishing hook, then they will be very wary and careful of what they’re eating and they will avoid anything that looks metal or like a hook. They can learn and remember mazes and other kinds of puzzles even months later after not doing it for a month. They’ll put them back in the maze and they’ll be able to go right through. And migrating fish. So this is so amazing to me. I mean, talk about memory! Migrating fish will be born in a small tributary somewhere in freshwater and then they will follow the water out to sea, grow up, live their lives, be swimming miles and miles and miles and the ocean, and when they have the urge to lay their eggs, they will somehow come all the way back through numerous, numerous tributaries and possible different directions to go, and they’ll go right and left and find, go back to the exact place where they were born. And that’s, that is an internal GPS that is fascinating and we have nothing like that. So, they certainly have an amazing memory.
Fish really are highly sensitive to touch and tactile connection can really enrich their lives. Many fish court each other with gentle rubbing and nipping each other’s bodies. There are lots of videos of fish being petted that want to be petted, people putting their hands in the water and the fish swimming up to their hands so they can be stroked and touched. There are lots of accounts from divers that encounter fish and eels that rub against them and want to be caressed and hugged and smuggled. Just a little side note, if you are snorkeling or diving, you never want to approach or force a fish or an animal to come in contact with you. You want to be respectful and be sure that they want the interaction and that they’re coming to you.
And when it comes to fear and anxiety, and I think this is really important to our conversation, which ultimately is whether or not we should be killing and eating fish, it has been absolutely documented and scientifically confirmed that fish feel fear. They respond to dangerous situations the same as any animal. Their breathing gets faster, they release distress pheromones, they show signs of panic, they may freeze or flee or try to look bigger. After an incident of fear or anxiety, they will avoid that area where the incident occurred often, and some may even stop eating. And I believe that all these things that we are learning are important, but what really matters is that we know that fish feel pain. And we know that they experience fear and anxiety. This alone should be reason enough not to kill and eat them.
I want to get into the details of an experiment that was conducted on fish and other animals. And I want to give another disclaimer here because this experiment was about intelligence and how quickly an animal can learn and how smart they are, at least in our assessment and understanding. Basically, my disclaimer is that we should never ever use intelligence as a reason that we categorize animals, that we protect one animal or exploit another animal. How smart we discover them to be should not be a factor in whether we use or abuse an animal. Again, the only criteria for that should be if they feel pain, if they feel fear, if they suffer. However, that doesn’t mean that we can’t learn more, and know more, and know about different species and get to know them better. That’s why I want to share this experiment with you. So these researchers gave two plates of food to various species of animals, and the two plates of food were identical amounts of food, the same types of food, the only difference was the color of the plates. And it was a puzzle. Basically, the animals started to eat on one plate, let’s say the red plate, then the blue plate would be removed. But if they started eating on the other plate, on the blue plate, both plates would remain and you get to eat all the food. And of course, that’s the best. We all want to eat all the food. It was trial and error. They had to learn what to do to be able to get more food. This experiment was given to capuchin monkeys, orangutans, chimpanzees, and fish. Guess who figured it out faster? The fish. It took fishes an average of 45 trials, compared to primates that took 100 trials. It took the primates twice as long to figure it out and, in some cases, they never quite figured it out. The chimpanzees never quite figured it out. I think this really flips on its head what we think we know about different animals. Right? I read about this experiment in Jonathan Balcome’s book, What A Fish Knows, which I mentioned at the beginning, and here’s what he had to say, “When fishes outperform primates on a mental task, it is another reminder of how brain size, body size, presence of fur, feathers, or scales, and evolutionary proximity to humans, are wobbly criteria for gauging intelligence.”
I’m going to wrap up soon but want to share with you a really sweet story. This story is about two goldfish that lived in a tank. And one goldfish was a little black moor goldfish named Blackie. And Blackie had been born a little wonky. He was deformed and could barely swim. He just kind of hopped around the bottom of the tank. And his buddy in the tank was Big Red. And Big Red was a larger orange beautiful goldfish. When it was mealtime and the caretaker of the fish put the food at the top of the tank and the food kind of drifts down, Big Red would go to the bottom of the tank and he would scoop Blackie up on his back and he’d swim up to the food as it was drifting down and he would have Blackie eat first. He would allow Blackie to eat his fill of the food. And then when Blackie had had his fill, Big Red would gently put him back down on the bottom, and then Big Red would go and eat. This is such an amazing story. So what did we see in Big Red? Big Red was expressing compassion and kindness, friendship, empathy, caretaking, selflessness, and generosity. He was putting Blackie’s needs first. Are these emotions that you would have normally attributed to fish? Probably not. But when you dig into the science and the research and hear the amazing stories of individual fish, these classifications and emotions that I just listed for Big Red, they are abundant in the ocean.
If you want to learn more, a great resource is an organization called Fish Feel. Their website is really easy, it’s fishfeel.org. And there’s also a Facebook page that has some great information called Let Fish Live.
It’s really unnecessary to eat fish, and if you like the taste of fish and you feel that you might miss it, as you’re trying to transition away from it, there are some great new fish-free, fish-like products coming out in the frozen section of many stores. Look for those. Sushi can be made without fish very easily and deliciously. It’s really unnecessary to eat fish.
I’ll end this podcast with another quote from Jonathan Balcome, “A fish is an individual with a personality and relationships. He or she can plan and learn, perceive and innovate, soothe and scheme, experience moments of pleasure, fear, playfulness, pain and … joy. A fish feels and a fish knows.”
Thank you for listening to the Reason For Vegan Series. Be sure to listen to the second part of this two part fish series that will be number 9 coming out soon. For that one, I’ll be talking about the fishing industry and how fish are killed, and how we are depleting the oceans of life. If you think that this is important information, please share this podcast on your social media pages, and also leave a positive rating or review wherever you listen to your podcasts. Please remember fish think, fish feel, they have their own lives, so please, don’t eat fish and live vegan.
