Podcast Transcript
Hope
Welcome to the Hope for the Animals podcast, sponsored by United Poultry Concerns. I’m your host, Hope Bohanec. You can find all our past shows by going to our website, hopefortheanimalspodcast . org. I would love to hear from you. On the podcast today we have an interview with Judy Carmen. Judy is going to talk about her work connecting veganism and spirituality and the inspiring books that she has written.
We’re now nearing the end of the year and this time always brings reflections on the past and hopes for the New Year. We’re ending this just crazy, unprecedented, challenging, life changing year. It has been crazy to think that we have just lived through this historic moment of a global pandemic. Our lives are forever changed, now, before, and after the pandemic. I created this podcast because of the pandemic. We now have 25 episodes as of this recording with 16 full episodes and nine reasons for vegan short segments. Big changes so often only happen when we’re under pressure, or when crisis strikes. I know that even just a year ago, at the end of 2019, had someone said to me, you’re going to start a podcast next year. I would have said, no, I don’t have the technical skills to figure that out. There’s no way that I could do that. But there I was in March, sitting at home watching all of my outreach events canceling one by one and then by April, I was doing almost nothing for the animals with an empty calendar for the first time in 30 years. I was forced to adapt, to assess my skill set, and push myself to be brave and face the technical challenges and move my activist world online. Honestly after eight months, and being able to assess it, I feel that this podcast could be even better than the events that I did.
I’m certainly reaching a lot of people with a well thought out hour of edited content in 17 different countries. What was at first a crisis and a scramble turned out to be what I believe and I hope to be even more effective outreach for the animals than I’ve ever done in my life. I hope very much that this is happening on a larger scale with the world, that this year’s worldwide COVID-19 crisis, the protests against racial injustice, the exposure of the racial and economic inequalities from the pandemic, and then all the massive fires in the west, and the hurricane after hurricane in the south, all the environmental disasters that have happened this year, I pray that all this turmoil will be the catalyst for change that we need. Humans can be really slow to change, very resistant to change, and sometimes it takes a tragedy or a crisis to wake us up and make different choices once that benefit the earth and the animals and everyone. It’s often a health crisis that motivates someone to go vegan. I know a lot of vegans have said that it was an ailment that got them to try veganism. Anything from digestive issues to cancer. But then as their health improved, they learned about the suffering of the animals and how beneficial it is for the planet. So, they stayed vegan and they embraced veganism on a deeper level.
I hope that this is what is happening, that this was the global health catastrophe that we needed to galvanize change, to wake us up to making better choices. A great way to start is with New Year’s resolutions. We’re coming up on the New Year. I love to make New Year’s resolutions, and often they’re big things that I kind of know I’m going do, but it just helps me to hold to them. But I try to make at least one that’s challenging, something that really challenges me, things like my ongoing quest to have a zero waste plastics-free house, taking steps closer to that goal. I hope that if you’re not vegan, and you’re listening to this podcast that you’ll consider going vegan for the New Year. It’s a great time to get a fresh start, it’s a great time to make a commitment, and start evolving into the person that you want to be. And a reflection to the compassionate society that we want to see. I also want to invite you to think about what a vegan world would look like. The New Year is a great time to visualize what we want. And if we can’t imagine what we want the world to be, how can we create it? So, take a few minutes today or sometime soon and think about what we want to create, what we want to see.
How about walking into the grocery store and there’s no meat counter? No, horrible glass counter with the carcasses of dead bodies that you have to avert your eyes from or try to avoid? How about no dairy or eggs section with the bodily fluids of tortured cows and chickens? All the milks would be plant based and all the abundant foods would be egg free. You wouldn’t have to read any ingredients labels because everything would always be vegan. Always naturally healthy and cruelty free.
How about no plastics polluting our oceans, clean air for our children, wildlife bridges, and corridors that take animals safely over and under roads, so no one even knows what the word roadkill means? What will it take to get there? What can you do what can you commit to in the New Year to bring us closer to this compassionate vegan world? It will take every one of us. So let’s start with the New Year.
Hope:
I would like to bring in our speaker now, today we have Judy Carman. And Judy has her master’s degree in clinical psychology. She’s the author of a few books. Her popular book, Peace to All Beings: Veggie Soup for the Chicken Soul, I remember from a few years back and I loved that book. She is also the co author of The Missing Peace: the Hidden Power of Our Kinship with Animals. Today we will talk about her latest book, Homo Ahimsa: Who We Really Are and How We’re Going to Save the World. The title is a play on the name of the human species, of course, Homo sapiens. Judy is the recipient of the Henry Spirit Grassroots Animal Activist Award and is the founder of the Animal Peace Prayer Flag Project, she’s the co-founder of Animal Outreach of Kansas, the Worldwide Prayer Circle for Animals, Interface Vegan Coalition, and she assists with vegan spirituality events. So, she is very busy and doing a ton of work. We’re so happy to have her here. Hi Judy, thanks for being here.
Judy:
Hi Hope. It’s wonderful to be here. I so appreciate you inviting me on your wonderful show. I just love this show.
Hope:
Oh, thank you!
Judy:
So thank you. Nice to be here.
Hope:
Wonderful. We were just talking a little bit off the air about your first book, Peace to All, or was it, maybe it wasn’t your first book, Peace to All Beings, was that your first book?
Judy:
No, there was the other book.
Hope:
There is your most popular book, Peace to All Beings: Veggie Soup for the Chicken Soul, and I remember how much I loved that title, because I remember back when there were the books called Chicken Soup for the Soul, and there was a whole bunch of offshoot titles with the same chicken soup kind of thing and theme and I would always think every time I saw that title or heard it I would think, but what about the chickens? Who’s going to bring peace to the chickens? So I love that title. I think you did a wonderful job playing on that title. That’s really good.
Judy:
Oh, thanks! Yeah, I just, it was every time they came out with another book, Chicken Soup for this, Chicken Soup for the Pet Lover Soul, even. I just thought, No! Somebody has to say something! This is crazy!
Hope:
Yeah, it was a wonderful response Title I love that. Thank you for that.
Judy:
Oh, thanks.
Hope:
Yeah. And so before we get into your new book, though, I really want to hear more about your journey. You’ve been a vegan for a very long time. You’ve been in the activist community for a long time. So I want to hear about when you went vegan, why you went vegan? What got you in to activism and what’s your vegan journey?
Judy:
I’ve been vegan about 25 years. Before that, I was vegetarian for about 25 years. When I went vegetarian, I was also an environmentalist, I’m doing a lot of environmental and peace activism, which was kind of kind of combined back then in the 70s and animal rights was just getting started. So, I was vegetarian because I loved animals, and I hadn’t really learned that much about what was happening to them. I don’t think a lot of people had because undercover videos were just starting to be revealed. We had a group in Kansas City at that time, called Animal Kind. I remember one time we had our meeting, and we wanted to eat vegetarian. So we went to a restaurant, it was a steak restaurant right? Because that’s what there was back then. And they served us these plates with, like, steamed broccoli and steamed cauliflower and steamed peas, and it was, it was just vegetables. And they thought well, they’re vegetarian so we’ll just put a bunch of vegetables.
Hope:
Why don’t you like vegetables?
Judy:
You know? They’ll be fine.
Hope:
Boiled, no salt.
Judy:
So anyway. It was pretty funny, but we’ve come a long way since then.
Hope:
Yes.
Judy:
I went vegan, as I was learning more and more, as we all were who, who were activists back then, as PETA was coming out, and all the different groups that were forming in the 70s and 80s. This is of course before computers. If there are any young people listening, if you can imagine, we called each other on the telephone.
Hope:
That’s right! I remember that.
Judy:
To say let’s get together for a meeting or a protest or something. So we, we had to learn from books and magazines and letters and that sort of thing. But we were learning and we were having conferences, and at one of the conferences, remember I was still vegetarian. I was eating a lot of cheese, and I went to a conference and I heard what was happening to the cows, and I was just completely beside myself. I was so upset. I called the Horizon Dairy because they were selling organic milk. And I thought, maybe there’s a way out of this for me. I’ll see. They’ll tell me how wonderfully they treat the cows and everything. I got a hold of the man on the telephone and he said, I said, Okay, what happens to the babies when, when the mothers have their baby, baby cows? And he said, well we take them away from the mother right away. And so then, about how long can the mothers produce milk for people? And he said, about three years. Then I said, so then what happens to them? And he said one word, hamburger. And I just, my heart just broke.
Hope:
Yeah.
Judy:
Of course then I started learning about eggs and chickens and all of that, including the misery behind the ducks and chickens that backyard people raise. I found out about that. That those little babies never get to see their mothers and they’re shipped in containers through the mail and most of them die. I don’t know that exact statistic, how many of them die in transportation, and then once they’re bought at a farm store how many of those die, and if one of them turns out to be a rooster, then, you know, they have a sad future. All the baby boy chickens who are killed when they’re born. So, then, you know, that was it. I went vegan from that point on. What a joy it has been ever since. Not the knowing of what’s happening part, which is very sad, but the part of knowing that you’re not contributing to that suffering. It brings you so much joy. And there’s even some research that indicates that you physiologically are changing so that your empathy increases, your compassion increases, and just your joy of living from not taking in any violence into your body. So that’s why I went vegan. And it was a long time ago and boy, there sure a lot more choices now to choose from. And vegan restaurants.
Hope:
Yes, it’s true. Yes, absolutely.
Judy:
And cookbooks. Oh my goodness, it’s a different world.
Hope:
It really is and, yeah, for, for us that have been in it a long time I’ve been vegan 30 years, I will often say, back then, you had to really want it, you had to really want to be vegan. I mean there was, it was much harder back then. When people say, oh it’s so hard to be vegan. I just laugh inside, because the choices now are just so abundant compared you know to 30 years ago.
Judy:
Yes, it’s amazing. We would get milk powder and it was made from soy.
Hope:
Yes, powdered! That’s right, powdered soy milk. I remember that. Yeah you added water and it was all chalky and you were just so grateful to have something to put on your cereal, but yeah. So we have come a long way, which is, which is such a great sign of how vegan is going mainstream.
Judy:
It definitely is. Yeah, it just makes your heart happy.
Hope:
Yes.
Judy:
To see all those choices out there. And it does make it so much easier for people to go vegan. It’s wonderful.
Hope:
Yeah, absolutely. Saying you know it makes your heart happy, something you were saying earlier about being more joyful as a vegan, and that it can make you happier. I agree in that a lot of people, happiness, it comes from having purpose in life, you know, having some kind of purpose and that can bring a sense of joy and happiness and veganism, it gives you that sense of purpose. That that you’re doing something good for the planet, for the animals, you know, all day long. Your choices, every meal. So I agree. I think that it can, it can, maybe not for everyone, but for a lot of people can bring about a joy and a sense of purpose and happiness.
Judy:
Yeah, I totally agree Hope. Yes, because it is, it does give you a sense of purpose. You know that every at every meal you’re doing something really good for the earth, for hungry people, for the animals, everything.
Hope:
Yeah, there are so many things. It touches so many aspects of our life and lives. I’m curious since your work leans towards the spiritual, and there is a spiritual element in all that you do and in your writing and your activism. I’m curious if you were raised in a religious household, or what your experience was of religion or spirituality growing up?
Judy:
I was raised Episcopalian and so I went through the various things and I was in the choir and all that stuff. I was pretty dedicated to the point where I even drove myself to church when I learned how to drive because my mother was so busy with all the kids. And I was really interested in religion but I just couldn’t get any feeling of, I don’t know, a relationship with the divine in that church, and part of it was that we Episcopalian churches, or at least the one I went to, was a more kind of country club type approach, so that there was a lot of people there who were hunters, getting ready to go hunting in the afternoon, women wearing fur coats, lots of fur coats, and the minister, not really ever referencing animals, as if there weren’t any, as if human beings were the only creatures on the planet.
Hope:
Yeah.
Judy:
Everything, it was just very anthropocentric as, you know, and that’s what we’re still dealing with now, but there was something so terribly missing in that church for me, so I kind of ended up studying lots of different religions. And strangely I ended up back in Christianity, but in a different kind of way. I kind of say my, my religion is love. And so, that can be any religion really, because they’re the core of just about every religion that there is, is love. But yes, it was, it was a journey because I did decide that I was an atheist for about 15 years in that whole journey and that that wasn’t working for me too well. And so, I found that I needed a spiritual, a spiritual approach to life.
That’s when I started studying all the different religions and finding out what they have in common, which can pretty well be summed up in the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. There’s a fellow who has put together a beautiful poster on the Golden Rule and the different ways it has spoken of and the different religions, it’s just a wonderful poster. I recommend everybody to look at it, they’re interested in spirituality because it shows that the core value of nearly every religion is that Golden Rule, and all these religions are kind of misaligned at this point, with the Golden Rule.
One of the main things that we’re doing with the interfaith coalition and is to try to help people understand that we are in perfect alignment with that love and that Golden Rule. That means vegan. Veganism is the Golden Rule in action. So that’s kind of my religious path in a nutshell there.
Hope:
Okay. And so you did eventually come to I believe, co-founding right? The Interfaith Vegan coalition and working in the realm of vegan spirituality. So how did that come about?
Judy:
I met Lisa Levinson. She was having a vegan spirituality retreat. I went to one of them, somebody told me about it. I saw it and I thought, Oh my gosh, I have to be there, because I had been an activist for so long and very few activists were interested, or maybe that’s not the word, just leaning in that direction of spirituality and how they intertwined with spirituality in such a deep way. When I heard about her retreat, I said, I’m going. I met her and then from there, she and I started working together, and we came up with the idea of the Interfaith Vegan Coalition about three and a half or four years ago. And with Thomas Jackson, who put together the film, a Prayer for Compassion, which, if you, if you’re listening and you have not seen that film you must see it. It’s just amazing. It is a group of vegan religious leaders that Thomas has interviewed from many different faiths. The three of us decided to put this together and try to reach basically, all the religions, all the religious leaders and people of faith and say hey, if you want to be completely aligned with your highest values, go vegan. We have all kinds of information on our Interfaith Vegan Coalition website about how people can do that in, within their place of faith, their place of worship.
Hope:
I would love to ask you about your new book, Homo Ahimsa, who we really are and how we’re going to save the world. First, tell us a little about the book, what does ahimsa mean for those that don’t know, and also what inspired you to write the book.
Judy:
I’m pretty excited about this book. Ahimsa is a Sanskrit word that means literally non-harm and Homo sapiens, of course, as we know, means the wise human. “Sapiens” means “wise” in Latin. But we have not been very wise over the last 10,000 years. We have done an awful lot of destruction to the earth and to the animals. It’s through the roof. It’s unbelievable what Homo sapiens has done to the animals. This has been largely because of Homo sapiens having the idea that we’re here to dominate all other beings, including nature, and that that’s our job. That’s what we can do and then of course includes many people as well. It has made it possible for humans to think of the idea of enslaving other people. And enslaving animals on a massive scale. My thinking is that Homo sapiens cannot solve the problems that it created. The beautiful truth, I believe, is that we are all really Homo ahimsa in our hearts, and that we have just been programmed to believe that we’re here to dominate, and that we’re the center of the universe, and not here to be kind and loving and caring for all of life.
But I believe we are truly, in our true nature, Homo ahimsa. And so it’s not so much a transformation to become a new species, as it is, we’re unveiling ourselves as who we really are. And the work involved in that is letting go of all the old programs which is his work. So what I actually came up with this term, when I wrote Peace to all Beings in 2003, or thereabouts, and I had proposed that that was who we really are. And let’s start acting that way. Let’s let go of all these old ideas of who we are, that we somehow came here to dominate the earth, and women and children and marginalized people and animals and nature. Let’s just trash the oceans and trash all the creeks and rivers and kill off all the fish and all of these ideas. They don’t resonate with who we really are. They break our hearts all the time, and we’re not even aware of how devastated we are by the devastation we’re producing. Now, here we are in in a pandemic, which has largely been caused, as far as we can tell, by our mistreatment of the environment and animals. It’s karma. It’s all coming back on us, when our species what we’ve done to other species.
Hope:
That’s right.
Judy:
It’s boomeranging back on us. It’s time, we’re actually pretty close to running out of time to make this change and so I felt really compelled to write this book. To take the idea that I came up with about Homo ahimsa in Peace to all Beings, and really talk about it. What is it? And how are we going to get there? And how we are we going to create the vegan world that Homo ahimsa naturally always create and protect. And interestingly, I started feeling this just real push to do this. But I really feel like the trees and the birds and the squirrels around here were saying that idea you have to get this book. But I started it, a year before the COVID-19 emerged. I finished it, right when the COVID-19 happened. The news came out. And I thought, Oh, this somehow, this is related.
Hope:
Yeah.
Judy:
We’ve got to warn everyone we’ve got to wake everyone up and make some serious changes.
Hope:
Getting a little deeper into the book, you say, and I’m going to read a quote now from the book: “Vegan living is a spiritual calling and a spiritual path that you can count on to lead your heart home and empower you to keep the faith that humanity can transform.” What did you mean by this? Please elaborate on this idea of bringing the spiritual and the vegan together.
Judy:
Thanks for asking that. I think that, and I say this in my book because I there are so many vegans whom I’ve met who shy away from the idea of spirituality. What I’m basically saying is, when I say “spiritual” I don’t mean, I think you should go to church, or to some place of worship, necessarily, or have a belief in a higher power, even. What spiritual means to me is, you would not be vegan, if it weren’t your spirit calling you to be vegan, because it’s your spirit that isn’t necessarily logical, it is heart intelligence heart wisdom, and it’s telling you we cannot keep destroying life the way we are. You can hear all kinds of logical arguments against that statement that I just made that, you know, we have to clean up our act, because there are just all kinds of science saying if we just get more technological and get more and better cars out there and all of these things, you’d go okay fine. You know I’ll just wait until they fix all these things, but no vegans are doing that. They are saying, “No, we do not have the right to cause this kind of misery and destruction.” That’s coming from your spirit. That’s what I’m saying. It’s coming from your spirit.
So in that sense, I see you as a spiritual being: Someone who is following their heart’s wisdom, and their heart’s rhythm, and they want to live aligned with their belief that love is a good thing, and that helping others is a good thing and, and the Golden Rule. If you are vegan, I like to say you’re on a spiritual path. Even if you don’t like that word, you can call it something else, but it’s a hard path.
Hope:
So this actually gets into my next question, it’s kind of blending together here so I want to I want to ask this other question because I loved reading your book. I felt like we’re spirit sisters in so many ways because you touched on so many things. You touched on things that that I think about and that I’ve thought, but I’ve never really talked about or written down, these same ideas around spirituality and veganism. In chapter five, you say, and I’m going to quote you again here: “In many ways, activists and change makers who resist the term ‘spiritual’ are spiritual, even though they don’t like the term. They’re spiritual because they are compelled to do selfless work. If you care deeply about the suffering of others in spite of society’s pressure to ignore it, you are a person who is in touch with your true heart and your true spirit.”
I really love this because I’ve often thought that something similar that vegans are just naturally spiritual, even if they are staunchly secular and very atheistic. I don’t want to say that you know you have to be spiritual or, you shouldn’t be spiritual that’s certainly not what I’m saying. I don’t think it’s what you’re saying either. I think what we’re saying is that it’s, there’s something deep going on here something kind of soul, you know, soul and heart centered going on. One thing that is always interesting to me is when there are issues such as vegans who don’t like their food cooked on the same grill that meat was cooked on. This scenario isn’t really about the boycott of the animal products or a strategy for reducing meat purchases or anything like this. This is something deeper. Sure, it can just be kind of an ick factor like just kind of gross, and I think maybe that’s all it is for some people, but I think for most of us, there’s something deeper going on. It’s like a purity of the soul and the spirit that we just don’t want to taint our bodies or our spirit with anything that touches suffering or comes even close to suffering if we can help it. It’s part of that transforming ourselves to more conscious beings, Homo ahimsa, where we really are sensitive and aware, to being connected to anything that has anything to do with suffering, you know?
Judy:
You said it so well. I totally agree and I think, yes, that just that image of a veggie burger being grilled, you know on the same grill, as one comes from an animal is, it is a very deep thing I think was the most vegans, and that gets right to that spirit or heart because the more we learn, the more we see in the videos and in, with our own eyes, all these transport trucks and all these things that we are learning about. We feel their pain when we’re seeing these burgers, that came from cows being grilled, we see their just their agony.
Hope:
I’m getting a little deeper into your book. I came across something else that I agree with and have thought of before as well and wanted to talk to you about. There are some people who consider veganism a religion. I don’t agree with that. I don’t like that. You seem to agree with me in the book because you say and I’ll do another quote from your book here: “Veganism, rather than being a separate religion, is instead the foundational ideals of nearly all religions.” I fully agree. I like this because I think it is more of a universal concept that’s connected to non-violence, compassion, and love, which are really at the heart of all religions.
Judy:
I’ve been thinking about that for a long time, and how key that is to every religion as far as their highest values of the Golden Rule or living in harmony, or going back to the garden, the Garden of Eden. And there’s of course, many other legends about our earliest days, when we were vegan, and just eating plants, and living in harmony with all the animals. The animals were friends and not running away from us in fear. So I think it’s one of the keys to me to awaken this sleeping giant, as some people call it, of religion and saying all you have to do is just open up your hearts a little bit to see that that applies to all life and not just a few people.
I think what’s so exciting about this is that we’re talking about millions of people here who are people of faith who believe in God, believe in their religion, and want to be good people. If we can get religious leaders and people of faith to understand this concept and feel it in their hearts, then we could create a vegan world very quickly. So that’s one of the goals of the Interfaith Vegan Coalition, and we’re really working hard on it. I feel like it has so much potential. We’ve got to reach these folks, because they are so close to understanding that veganism is completely aligned with their highest value.
Hope:
Yeah, it’s true I believe that people of faith are really low hanging fruit, because they are already in the mindset of living ethically and having compassion and love at the heart of their religion. You also founded the Animal Peace Prayer Flag Project. Tell us about that project.
Judy:
I saw these wonderful Tibetan peace flags, prayer flags that people fly. For a long time I thought animals need to have their own flag. I asked my sister who can draw and I cannot, if she could help me and she drew this beautiful flag. I found these flag makers in Katmandu. They’re third or fourth generation flag makers and they make the flags. I have a wonderful video that Daniel Redwood did a song, a beautiful, beautiful song for the animals, and it’s in the background. He’s singing that while I’m showing pictures of the flag hanging in different places where people have hung them up and they’re now in many countries around the world. Of course, the concept of prayer flags is that as the flag deteriorates in the wind and the weather, those prayers, just flow here around the world. I just love that idea. I felt like the animals needed their own flag. We wear them on our backpacks sometimes when we’re hiking and kayaking and people just can, you know, put them anywhere, wherever they are. Words are very powerful, visions are very powerful. The main words on the flag are “May all beings live free,” and those words go into the energy field of earth. And so it just creates a tremendous power of moving us in that direction.
Hope:
I love that. It’s wonderful and I will put a link to where you can get those prayer flags in the show notes. So, Judy, what is your vision for a vegan world? What gives you hope?
Judy:
What gives me hope? One of the things is you, Hope, and your podcast for hope for the animals is perfect. I love the title of that. Also, just all the other podcast that are coming out, so many videos that so many people out there working on this and constantly increasing number of vegans and animal sanctuaries and articles in regular magazines and newspapers, about the rights of animals. Sometimes when I’m not quite ready to go to bed, I just want to Google something that’s going to really be cheery. Last night I googled animals being rescued or something like that. And I saw this one about this baby armadillo that someone had. The baby was at the rehabilitation center, and he was so cute. And they were just loving on him, and they put him in the bathtub. He was just turning somersaults and so much fun in the bathtub. I just thought we’re going make it. We’re going to be able to do this because there are so many wonderful people out there who are taking care of these animals who need to be rescued.
It’s really good way I think to lift your spirits and see so many wonderful people out there. Go to animal sanctuaries if you can, if there’s one near you. They will lift your heart, and you’ll be able to spend time with animals, look into their eyes, and see how much love they have to give us. I do believe in holding visions of what we want to have happen. I believe that it’s very important for all of us to picture, what this vegan world is going to look like with the zoos no longer being zoos where people can come involved with the animals but rather, they have turned into sanctuaries where the animals who couldn’t survive in the wilderness are taken care of and loved, and the ones who could survive in the wilderness are set free. And wilderness areas coming back, so that animals have room, and they have the food they don’t have to worry about people hunting them and fishing for them and bulldozing their forests down.
We need to keep those visions alive in our hearts, while at the same time we’re seeing all of the bad things, as Homo ahimsa, we can hold this vision of what it’s going to be and already is in many places. It’s good to go to those places, like a sanctuary, and see it with your own eyes. It’s also good to see it in your imagination and believe it and feel it, and smell and taste what that’s going to be like, and know we’re going to get there.
Hope:
Well Judy, we do need to wrap up. It’s been a really wonderful conversation. I’ve loved talking with you. Do you have any final thoughts? Anything you wanted to say as we wrap up?
Judy:
I just want to tell everyone who’s listening, don’t lose hope. I’m so glad you’re listening to this, I’m so glad that you care. Do not lose hope. Hang on. We are all in this together and we can create a vegan world together. There’s a lot of us now, and more and more joining us all the time, and Homo ahimsa can do it. So, thank you so much for having me on your show I really appreciate it.
Hope:
Absolutely. Well thank you so much for being on and for sharing all your wisdom, and your beautiful vision for a vegan world. I’ve really enjoyed it.
Judy:
Thanks Hope.
Hope:
Thank you so much for listening to the Hope for the Animals podcast. If you’ve enjoyed this show, please share it with your friends and on your social media pages, and please give us a positive rating or review, wherever you listen to your podcasts. As Judy said, please have hope. We are going to get there, we are going to create a beautiful compassionate vegan world, with your help, so please live vegan.
