Podcast Transcript
Hope
Welcome to the Hope for the Animals podcast, sponsored by United Poultry Concerns. I’m your host, Hope Bohanec, and you can find all our past shows at our website, hopefortheanimalspodcast.org. Today I’m talking with Israeli food blogger and cookbook author, Ori Shavit, and Israel is really becoming a vegan success story. There’s a massive surge of veganism in Israel, just in the last decade. They’ve gone from negligible amounts of vegans to really high numbers in just a few short years, and now they have the highest percentage per capita of vegans and vegetarians in the world. There’s a flood of new vegan restaurants and vegan products and vegan tech startups in Israel. And in Tel Aviv, Tel Aviv is the second largest city in Israel, it’s now being promoted as the vegan capital of the world, and in this city alone there’s now 400 restaurants that are considered vegan and vegetarian and vegan friendly, and just a few years ago, waitstaff didn’t even know what vegan was but now it’s hard to find a restaurant without a vegan section on the menu. Companies are recognizing Israel’s shift and they’re testing vegan products in the country, like, Domino’s Pizza debuted their vegan cheese on their pizza there in Israel and Adidas released their non-leather shoes for the first time in Israel. Tel Aviv also has the largest Vegan Fest in the world. So it’s really amazing what’s happening there, and it’s happening so fast. So we’re now going to hear from Ori, who was an early adopter of veganism in Israel and she’s going to tell us all about this amazing success story.
Hope:
Allright, so I want to bring in our guest now. Today we have Ori Shavit. Ori is an Israeli-based food journalist and restaurant critic who used to eat everything, but she went vegan about a decade ago and since then has been one of the leaders in the most significant culinary revolution to take place in Israel, and that is the rise of veganism there. She develops recipes, leads cooking workshops, and gives talks in Israel and around the world about plant-based eating and the vegan lifestyle and also about this revolution that has made Israel, in just a few years, the country with the highest percentage of vegans and vegetarians in the world. Ori’s written a best selling cookbook, My Vegan Kitchen, which has already sold over 25,000 copies. And we’re just so happy to have her here today on the Hope for the Animals Podcast. Hi Ori. Welcome.
Ori:
Thank you. Hi everyone.
Hope:
Yeah, great to have you all the way from Israel. And I love when we do international guests. I haven’t done many, and I’m reaching out and wanting to do more because I love knowing that you’re so far away but yet we’re connecting and bringing our worlds together. I just love that.
Ori:
Yeah, me too. I think that this is a beautiful part of veganism moving beyond countries and boundaries, and it unites us all. We have the same goal and same interest and it’s nice to be part of a global movement.
Hope:
Yeah, Absolutely, I agree. So you were a food critic for many years, and I’ve always thought that people whose job is around food, just conventional food, especially those who write about it, and food bloggers and it’s their work, their job, I would think it would be much harder for them to go vegan because it’s literally your job. But you did. So, what got you to go vegan? How did this all happen? And how did you evolve to becoming an animal activist? Tell us your story.
Ori:
Well, that’s a nice story. Because it was really, it was a huge change, just like you’ve said, it was, it was a huge leap for someone like me because imagine a woman whose life is around food; it’s everything, but when her fridge, her kitchen, and restaurants and chefs. And, you know my job and my life are so combined you cannot separate them. They are the same actually. I’m even going to the supermarket so I’m looking for new products for my next column. If I’m going to a restaurant, I’m searching the menu for new dishes, and so on and so on. I’m always, you know, into it, it’s my passion, it’s my life, and it was my job so I was all over this subject, from every angle that you can imagine. And, I never thought I would change anything and of course you know saying no to food, was something that I would say, is sort of a disgrace in my milieu, in my group of people, you know? Like, you should eat everything, you should try everything. And then I went on a date with a guy. That’s what happened. I went on a date. And you know what they say about vegans, how do you know when someone is vegan? So they say, Don’t worry, they will tell you. So that’s the joke. So that’s what’s happened. After five seconds I found out I’m sitting with a vegan! Oh my god! And I’m like the furthest you can imagine from veganism, and was eating everything, everyone. And I said to myself, okay this is a waste of time. I would never be with someone who’s a vegan because my lifestyle is so different, and there’s no chance in the world that I would go vegan.
But I was already there, and I was a food journalist so I started to investigate him and asked him a lot of questions about veganism and all the regular, very famous questions like, what about if you have a chicken in your backyard? All the regular things that you ask. But I really wanted to understand why. Why is someone taking this, who looks so weird for me, you know, from the place that I was in. And then he started answering. And he sends me some, you know, some information, some links, and I got into it and I said okay, I’m a food writer, I’m not scared to learn about food. I should know everything about food, because this is my job. And I looked and felt it was sort of research that I’m doing as a journalist, you know? I didn’t think at the time that it would touch me or change me. I just wanted to know and to learn about it. And then when I found out about the cruelty towards animals in this horrible industry, I was actually, I was shocked. I was ashamed. I was ashamed because, not only the fact that I didn’t know so much about food, it’s that I never stopped and asked these questions. And I thought that I was an aware person, and I’m a journalist, and food is my job and I thought that I know everything. But I never stopped and never asked, and I’ve never thought about the simple thing like how does a cow give milk? What is the process and what happens along the way? And when I found out all this information, especially about the dairy farming and about eggs, I was really shook down. And it was a matter of days, until I was 100% vegan.
Hope:
Wow, just days?
Ori:
Yeah, it was maybe between a week to two weeks, the most. I felt that, that there is no way back. I cannot delete what I’ve understood. I don’t have any excuse, except of taste. And I said okay but taste is not a reason to do all these things, so if I put taste aside, how can I defend my way of living? And I couldn’t! So I say okay, I have to change it. And I quit my job. And we’re talking about a time when there was nothing here in Israel. No fancy restaurants to write for a gastronomic magazine I was working in. I mean, there was, but I left everything and I didn’t know where I was going to.
Hope:
Wow. When was that? How long ago?
Ori:
It was a little bit more than nine years ago.
Hope:
Okay.
Ori:
Yeah, yeah.
Hope:
Wow, and that’s so amazing because you’re giving up your livelihood. It’s really commendable and amazing that you would not just go vegan in a matter of weeks, but also completely change your entire world by quitting your job. That’s amazing.
Ori:
Yeah, it was much more than quitting my job. I think that the biggest fear and feeling I had at the time was that you change your identity.
Hope:
Yeah.
Ori:
Because I was proud of being a woman that would never order a salad on a date. You know? To always eat steak or whatever. Today I look back and I say, oh my god. But yeah, I was, I was one of those people. But when I talked before about the fact that the people that work with food in the food industry, and I was one of them, it’s much harder to cross the lines. I think that’s what makes me a little bit more tolerant and a little bit more, maybe wise, if I may say so, in collaborating with people that are not vegan yet but they work for restaurants and in food production and so on. To know how to know the right approach towards these people because I can understand fear. I can understand the shock. The fact that it looks impossible for people when food is their whole life and their whole identity and their whole being. So I think maybe that would help me to start this change in restaurants in Israel and so on and the things that I’ve done, because I knew how to communicate with these people and how to collaborate with them. So, there is also a bright side in it.
Hope:
Yeah, that’s great! That’s great because it’s true, you have kind of an industry insider approach and knowledge.
Ori:
Yeah, you might say so.
Hope:
Yeah. That’s great. So, Israel has seen this surge of interest in veganism, in the last 10 years or so. It’s just really been unprecedented compared to other places in the world. What do you think accounts for that?
Ori:
So that’s a good question because I think that what happened in Israel was really unique. Today we can see the rise of veganism all over the world, and that makes me very, very happy. But I think what happened in Israel was special because of the short time and the intense change, that the powerful, like it was, like a flood or like a fire that catches up really really really fast, and suddenly everyone talks about it and it’s everywhere. And I think it’s a combination of things that makes Israel the perfect ground for something like that to happen. And I can count a few of the reasons that I think made it possible. So, first of all, the Israeli community, the Israeli people are immigrants, you know? We came from all over the world to Israel, and every different country brought their culture and their cuisine, and it became like a mixture of so many different cultures and cuisines that people here are used to, and much, I think, open minded to change your diet, change the way they eat, change their habits, because we don’t have long term traditional foods that we hold on to no matter what. And of course we have the Jewish tradition of food, yes. But still it’s kind of more open and more playful around when it comes to food. People are not afraid to try new things and they like to mix different types of foods, so they’re open to change.
And I think this is something that this is also part of the Israeli character, the fact that we love innovation, that we love to try new things. You know, they call Israel the startup nation. People here like to try new electric stuff or different startups and so why not with food, you know? And actually, a lot of the foods, of the vegan food tech, we have about 100 different initiatives and production that is already going on of vegan new and innovative products here in Israel. So, this is something that is a part of our culture, to seek for new solutions, for new innovations.
Hope:
Yeah, a lot of the new plant based tech foods are coming out of Israel.
Ori:
Yeah, yeah. And this is something that is really combining these two things of innovation and to try new things when it comes to food. And also of course the fact that we are a Mediterranean country. We have our Mediterranean diet, which is not that far from veganism. We already have a lot of grains and legumes and produce, fresh produce in our diet and olive oil. And you know our national dishes are hummus and falafel, so they’re both vegan dishes. And it’s a fact that no matter where you go in Israel as a vegan you will never starve because you have hummus and falafel everywhere. So you always have vegan food. So it is much easier to do it as an Israeli than maybe in different places that they say their local diet is much farther from veganism, it’s much different from veganism. So this is another point, and I think that also the kosher way of living really helps out because, I don’t know if you know what it means to keep kosher?
Hope:
Yeah, explain what that does mean and it’s a Jewish tradition.
Ori:
Yeah, it’s a Jewish tradition, and even if you’re not religious, you know about what it means. I don’t keep kosher, but of course I know what it means to be kosher.
Hope:
You mean if you’re in Israel, you would know, is what you mean.
Ori:
Yeah, as an Israeli of course you will know the rules. You will know that the Jewish people separate meat from dairy, they avoid eating different foods, like they don’t eat pigs, they don’t eat shrimps, and stuff like that. So it’s part of our culture to avoid foods. We are used to putting some boundaries when it comes to food. It’s not, it’s not a weird thing to people in Israel. And of course the fact that Israel is such a small country, if I have to compare, it’s about the size of New Jersey, or something like that. Yeah, we’re really tiny. We make a lot of noise. We are a tiny country with the population of, if I’m not mistaken, about 8 million people. That’s all. And the fact that we’re such a small community, it makes information move really really fast.
Hope:
I see. Yeah.
Ori:
When veganism start to rise in Israel, then everyone hear about it and everyone watch the same TV shows and everyone read the same articles, and everyone is on Facebook and of course the part of social media is huge in this revolution because that’s the way people are sharing the information, why to go vegan, and how to go vegan. And so everyone is exposed to it. It’s not like trying to make a revolution in the US. We are a small country so when something catches up here, it’s really like a fire. And that’s what happened. And it’s amazing because I think it’s sort of a microcosmos to show how you can do it also in other places. You know what I mean? Because it’s sort of an example that if you can make such a change in such a short time, in such a small place, and maybe you can copy it to other, to other places as well. So it’s really the combination of all these reasons that made Israel such a good place for veganism to grow like that.
Hope:
Yeah, that’s fascinating and all those things, just very interesting, and like you said, possibly a template for applying in a larger scale, to more worldwide scale. So this kind of leads into my next question, which is about the surge that we’ve seen really on the larger scale, and this year especially and maybe even because of the pandemic, we’re seeing more interest in plant based foods and vegan companies. So, have you seen this, this increase worldwide and what do you think that is attested to?
Ori:
Yeah, I can definitely say yes, I think it’s a fact that people are more interested these days, you know, especially because there was this first rise of the pandemic, and then people felt, at least here in Israel that things are going to be better and then it happened again, and we were back in our homes and shut down everything. And people understood that they have to change something, and they understand that something is so wrong and especially because they’re in house all day and they eat all the time and they became less healthy and they gained weight, and they are very concerned about keeping their immune system going well because they feel that maybe they won’t catch the Coronavirus that way. And a lot of reasons why people rethink their habits in many different angles, and also the fact that everyone started cooking again. And this is wonderful because when you cook for yourself, first of all you get to see the ingredients, you get to try new things, they look for different adventures in the kitchen, they have more time to cook. And part of it goes towards eating more and more plant-based even if they’re not vegans or vegetarians.
My blog was, I never saw such numbers, I mean, never before. People were looking for recipes like crazy, and there’s zoom cooking classes. People were really into it and what was really more and more fascinating is to see that organizations started to ask for my cooking classes like you know like, even global ones like Intel or Microsoft, they asked me to do cooking classes for their employees. I think it makes people more acceptable where they have the option to go vegan, and it doesn’t feel that weird or too much for me that people are really scared of it or feel that it takes a lot of effort and they want, they are more curious, they look at the world curiously, they understand, this is something good. I think because of all the prejudice that people have about veganism, they feel it, that it makes them feel like it’s a negative thing. And now, suddenly, it links to something better. It makes the world a better place. It makes me feel better. And if I don’t hurt animals, that’s also a good thing if I don’t hurt animals. And in the back of our minds, the fact that pandemics start, usually it starts from a connection between a human and non-human animal, and people also start to understand that it might be also connected to the way they eat and the way they shop and the way they consume food.
So again it’s a combination of things but definitely is much more acceptable, it becomes more and more mainstream, more and more something that you are not resisting but accepting and even want to have and learn more about it. And you can see also on TV when we see commercials for vegan products on primetime TV in Israel. This is something that only a few years ago I couldn’t even imagine. And I’m speaking about the largest dairy company in Israel that now produces for many years but now has a huge collection of plant-based products like plant-based milks and yogurts and so on, and they are a dairy company and the largest one in Israel, and when they produce commercials on TV for their non-dairy products, this is something that we say it’s the Messiah is coming, you know? Like, Jesus is like something that I wouldn’t imagine. And I think that these times are affecting this for the good, and hopefully people will change their habits, and we all pray for that. But I feel that they’re much more open.
Hope:
So I’d like to ask you about something. And I think that it’s really important for people to realize that if you go vegan that you won’t feel deprived or cheated out of anything. There’s just a huge variety of vegan foods to explore and delight in. And I love that this is a big part of your message. What would you say to someone who is concerned, that they will feel deprived or even hungry, if they go vegan?
Ori:
Well, I can only give myself as a perfect example. I mean, I changed everything. If I could do it. Food is my job, my passion. My biggest fear was that I would be hungry, and of course that I will be one of those, you know, miserable people that sit in the dark, have no friends and eat lettuce and sprouts, you know? That’s what I imagined being a vegan. And I was really scared that I’m going to be one of those people. And I was a totally hedonistic person eating in restaurants all day, writing my food critic, all my friends are chefs and so on and so on. And if someone like me could have done it, so everyone can. But seriously, I think that’s the biggest tip I can give. First of all, the change is not that big. Before you go vegan you feel like it’s climbing Everest. You feel like you have to go over a huge mountain, and, and after you do it, you understand you only moved like two blocks away from where you were. It’s not that huge because we all eat vegan foods. We eat vegetables. We all need vegetables and fruit and all this good stuff to be healthy and this is something very natural to us.
But the other thing is that I say to people is every change we do in life, it’s all in our heads, it’s all in our minds, it’s nothing to do with real problems, it’s how we look at things. And when you go into the kitchen, and all you think is, oh my god I don’t have anything to eat, what would I do? How can I do it without this? How can I use it without that? And it won’t be tasty, and I don’t know how to do it, and it’s so hard, and I have to be hours and hours in the kitchen and it will be so expensive, and you come with all this huge bag of bad thoughts into the kitchen. So I guess the food will look the same, which will be sad, and not tasty. But if you go into it as an adventure, and look at it as something new that you can try out, and taste new flavors, and then try new ingredients, and try new recipes and feel like a kid going into a new amusement park that they never entered before, you know? Try to have fun and to look at it as something that you will develop from and you will grow from and you will learn. And then I think that the food will smile back at you. You know? You have to enter the kitchen with a smile. And this is the start of everything and you know it’s true about every change you make in life. We are all used to clinging to what we are right now, I mean if you are stuck with a partner that you know that is not really good for you, but you will stay with that guy or girl because you’re afraid to move on and what will be next and so on are you afraid to be alone, or you work in a job that is not really suitable for you but you keep it because you’re scared and so on.
So it’s the same with changing your diet, we’re so involved emotionally with our foods and we feel like it will be the end of the world. Then you discover that it’s not only not the end of the world, it’s the beginning of a new adventure, very tasty, very colorful, very creative. And this was the most surprising thing for me, is that when you speak about veganism you feel that you reduce, that you say goodbye to all this stuff that you used to eat all the time and nothing left. And you will be left with nothing and hungry and so on. But the fact is, that once you open the door to this new world, and you don’t look back and what you don’t have, but you do look at what you do have, then you find out it’s so much more and you have so many ingredients that you never used before, and you have so many different foods that you can cook, and you have so many recipes today online and in books and everywhere.
When I started, there was almost nothing in Hebrew and today you have so much. It’s crazy. So I feel that my kitchen grew, you know? That my kitchen, that I broadened my cooking, and it didn’t shrink at all. And that I’m much more creative. I never cook the same thing. Because when you cook from animal products, I think it happens to a lot of people, you get into this loop of cooking these three things that you know how to cook, and you do it maybe in different variations but it’s always it’s always the same stuff. And then when you enter this vegan culinary world, you have so much more options and you look for this creativity. People start to enjoy cooking sometimes only when they go vegan, you know? Because of this creativity. So I really think that the first thing and the most important thing is our angle, our point of view, at this change, and the way we look at it. How we feel about it from within, you know? Not the thing that is outside of you but what is your point of view about it, how you feel about it. If you take it in the right perspective, in the right way, and in the right spirit, you will enjoy it, and it will be much much much easier.
Hope:
Nice. Yeah, yeah. That’s wonderful. I love having a good attitude about it, it’s true. And maybe not being scared of it because I think sometimes it’s not just being negative, but being a little afraid of the change. I did just want to mention though that we often say that it’s so easy, it’s so easy to go vegan, and for a lot of us it is. But for some people it’s not in different ways. Like, that may be where they live, they don’t have the access to fresh produce or some of the more creative and different ingredients. And maybe you don’t have the money to make a big change and try things that might not work. So just being aware of that and knowing it’s not possibly going to be just super easy for everyone. And if you don’t cook, too. I mean, just learning to cook can be a challenge.
Ori:
Yeah. Of course. Yeah, I totally agree, and I didn’t mean that it will be, of course, and I said that they will have to have time to adjust to it and then you have to make changes. Of course it’s not. The beginning was not that easy, but I think what helped me the most was my attitude. I think that we are afraid of the change, more than anything else. And if we take it as an opportunity, then it will help us to overcome the other difficulties. That’s what I was trying to say.
Hope:
Yeah, and talking about change, tell us about the Israeli International 22 Day Challenge. I’m sure this has to do with challenging yourself to go vegan, so please tell us about this.
Ori:
Yeah, this is an amazing project that started here in Israel. Of course, you all heard about this challenge or that challenge, like 30 days vegan or 31 days vegan. We have a lot of those.
Hope:
Right.
Ori:
But what’s special about this challenge and what made it be such an international success, I mean hundreds of thousands of people already joined it.
Hope:
Wow.
Ori:
And a huge percentage of those take vegan or at least change their way of eating in a way towards veganism, about 70 or 80%. This is amazing.
Hope:
Yeah.
Ori:
And the difference between other challenges and this one, is the fact that you have support. I think that one of the hardest things for people who go vegan, is the fact that they feel alone, and they feel that they don’t have anyone near them who does it as well, and they don’t have someone to ask all the questions and learn from and so on.
Hope:
Yeah.
Ori:
So thinking about that, I know there were a few researches about it in the US, showing the people who stopping being it a lot of the time, the reason is the fact that they didn’t have local support, and from their friends from the family and so on and they felt isolated and all this stuff that we were talking about before. What they do, actually, you sign up, and it’s totally free, and they have it all over the world in different languages, of course, in English too. You sign up, and then you go into a Facebook group, which is closed only to the people who are doing these 22 Challenges together at the same time. And they have on this group, they have vegan guides, like mentors. They have mothers, they have sportsmen and women, they have cooks, they have nutritionists. Everyone that can answer your questions, and also you can talk to them, to your mentor privately. I mean if you don’t want to discuss some issues that you have with all the group and that everyone will see it, you can also have some time with your mentor, privately to ask them one on one questions. But with 22 days, you have the support online, all the time, free of charge, and every day you have recipes, tips, menus, and they show you and teach you everything about vegan lifestyle, and one of the most important things is that it’s all in a very very friendly atmosphere. I mean it’s welcoming, it’s nice, it’s friendly, and it really gives you something, because it’s a group, and you have this support and you can share your questions and your problems, or your hesitations, but you do make a commitment to try it for 22 days. And what I say to people that when they have all these fears, and all these questions about veganism and all this prejudice, I say, you know what? I think that you have all these things in your mind, I had it too, because I never tried it. Try it out. I mean you have all these things, it’s free of charge, no excuses. And it is really helpful.
Hope:
So Ori, I want to ask you, what gives you hope for the future?
Ori:
I think what gives me hope the most is what we’re talking about brings me back to the beginning of our talk about Israel and the food tech industry that is growing here. I think that at the end, people will need a simple solution. We will have these options that I believe that are not that far from this day, as we can see this industry is working very hard and very fast. To have these options to switch one product, and to bring back the other one, which will be fully vegan and people won’t even notice that you changed it. And for the largest scale of humanity, this will be the fastest and easiest way to change their way of eating. As I see this day coming up sooner and sooner, it really makes me feel that it is much sooner than I ever imagined. Thinking of McDonald’s serving vegan hamburgers was, you know, was like-
Hope:
Unthinkable.
Ori:
Unthinkable! Unthinkable! Only a few years ago, only a few years ago, you know? When I look at what happened in Israel, it was such a huge and fast change, because when I started, I was a food writer and I knew everything that goes on and that was my job, I was writing about it all the time. And also what’s going on globally but especially in Israel, I knew that there was nothing. There was nothing vegan. And we’re talking about 9, 10 years ago. There was no, almost no restaurants, no menu with vegan dishes. You could find vegetarian dishes. And if you were vegan, you would say quietly to the waitress, and she would bring you salad without cheese and pasta with tomato sauce. That was the most. Okay, you had nothing. And this was a part of the reason why I had to quit my job because I had nothing to write home about, vegan food, you know? And when you see what has happened today, I compare it to sitting in an airplane. When you sit in an airplane, you look out of the window, you can’t really understand how fast you go. So I believe that we, the people that work in the vegan movement and promote veganism all over the world, we’re like someone that sits in an airplane and we can’t even understand how fast things are changing now.
Hope:
Right. It seems like it’s going, it seems like it’s going slow, but really-
Ori:
Yeah, but when I look back only 10 years, it’s such a huge change. It has become mainstream, that I would be invited to Microsoft for a cooking demo and vegan cooking demo, you know? Every restaurant you enter in Israel we will have vegan dishes on the menu, usually they’re also marked on the menu. It’s something that you couldn’t imagine, and it happened in such a short time, so that makes me very hopeful because I see every day in my work, how much change you can make as a single person. So think about all these people like you and me that work so hard to promote this movement, and to make this bigger, and to make it more accessible to everyone. So I really truly believe that it will take, not that long for things to change more and more towards a vegan lifestyle all over the world. Course I never forget all the billions of miserable animals, and they are the ones that keep me going, and that’s behind my back there are all these, I don’t know how you say it, like these gangs of animals that are pushing me towards doing what I’m doing and every time I feel scared or not confident to do something, I remind myself who am I doing this for. And I believe that with these forces joining globally, we can make a huge change.
Hope:
I love that image, of the herds of animals, the groups of chickens and cows. Yeah. All behind us supporting us and what we do. That’s a beautiful image.
Ori:
Thank you.
Hope:
Yeah. Ori, it’s been a really wonderful conversation. I’ve enjoyed it so much. You’re just so inspiring, Ori. I love your story and I love what you shared today so thank you so much for being with us.
Ori:
Thank you for inviting me. Thank you so much, and also for what you do. This is really important, and I’m happy to take part.
Hope:
Wonderful. Thanks so much Ori!
Ori:
Yeah, thank you.
Hope:
Thank you for listening to the Hope for the Animals podcast. Please give this podcast a five-star rating wherever you listen to your podcasts that really helps us to reach more people with our compassionate message. And also be sure to add us to your listening library so you don’t miss an episode. It’s so inspiring to think of the rise of veganism around the world. And I hope that you want to be part of it, so please live vegan.
