Podcast Transcript
Hope
Welcome to Episode 5 of the Hope for the Animals Podcast sponsored by United Poultry Concerns. I’m your host, Hope Bohanec and you can find all our shows at hope for the animals podcast.org. I welcome questions and comments on any show. My email is hope at UPC – online.org.
Today, I want to start with a new segment that I want to have periodically, called A Glimmer of Hope. And I want to share some recent positive stories about animals because I think that we can all use a little good news, especially now, there has been so much sadness and anxiety happening recently, well, for pretty much all of 2020. So I think it’s good to focus on some uplifting news, even if it’s small. And remember that there are good things happening to the animals, good things happening for the animals, and progress being made. With all that’s happening right now, these stories probably either got buried or went really under the radar. I did some digging to find all these wonderful positive stories. And I’m sure they didn’t get the attention that they would have normally. So I feel that we can use a little good news. I know I can. So I hope you enjoy these stories of hope for the animals. A little glimmer of hope.
All right, so this first story is a new report that’s come out that states that most meat in 2040 will not come from animals. A new report is saying, I saw it reported in The Guardian, it predicts that plant based meat and cultured meat, slaughter free meat will dominate the industry with 60% of the market in just 20 years.
A spokesperson for the Jeremy Koehler Foundation, which is a philanthropic organization focused on sustainable food systems. Her name was Rosie Wardell, she said, quote, “The shift to more sustainable patterns of protein consumption is already underway, driven by consumers, investors and entrepreneurs, and even pulling in the world’s biggest meat companies. If anything, predictions that 60% of the world’s meat will not come from slaughtered animals in 20 years time, may be an underestimation.”
Wow. Okay, the next story, Animal Planet has launched a new show called Saved by the Barn about Farm Animal Rescue and sanctuary, a sanctuary called Barn Sanctuary. And as much as Tiger King was a huge disappointment because so little attention was paid to the animals in the show. I’m hopeful that this will be more animal focused. Full disclosure, I have not seen this show. And that’s because I only stream my TV through an Apple box and I think you can only get Animal Planet on cable TV. If anyone out there can tell me how to watch the show, that would be great. I’d like to see it. But I think it’s hopeful just that there is a show about farmed animals and Farm Sanctuary life and rescue on mainstream TV. I’m hoping that it will be good. And I know that Barn Sanctuary is a vegan sanctuary so I’m hopeful for the show. If anybody has seen it, let me know if you like it.
Okay, next positive story in our glimmer of hope series. There is a city in Costa Rica, now I’m going to attempt to pronounce it I hope that this is how you pronounce it. I’m not sure but I think it’s Curridabat so Curridabat, Costa Rica has granted pollinators, including bees and hummingbirds and bats and butterflies, along with native plants and trees, protected citizenship under the law. This is really wonderful. The earth and all her animals deserve full protection under our human laws. The Nonhuman Animal Rights Project is a nonprofit working in the US to change the legal status of non-human animals from property to personhood. So I think this is a really wonderful first step of a good precedent to set. Thank you, Costa Rica.
Okay, next story. Here’s one that I am personally excited for, Dunkin Donuts has said that they will be adding a vegan donut. Woo hoo! Not much really to say about this except Please hurry. And I’ll also say vegan junk food-yes, yes to vegan junk food. Also, yes to vegan junk food in extreme moderation. Okay. Not Duncan every day.
All right, moving on. So, for this next story, I am excited to announce that Congressman Steve King has been voted out. Republican senator King from Iowa has been in Congress since 2002. And he was finally voted out while running for his 10th term recently. This guy has been terrible with animal issues for two decades. He’s just been awful. He has supported and defended dog fighting, cockfighting, he has protected puppy mills, he’s supported shark finning and horse meat and supported the slaughter of polar bears and undermined the Endangered Species Act. I mean, you name it, this guy has been an enemy of animals. He proposed these amendments to the farm bill, one was called the King Amendment that basically stripped away hard-fought animal welfare laws. Fortunately, it wasn’t included in the Farm Bill that year. But that didn’t stop him from continually attempting to erode animal legislation right and left. Well, he is finally out, and the animals can breathe a sigh of relief. A bit of an addendum to this story, the gentleman that did win the election is still a conservative Republican. So, you know, we’re not sure about him and what his stance will be with animals. But he’s the devil we don’t know, Steve King was the devil that we did know. And we’re happy and celebrating that he is finally gone.
This one I think a lot of people did know about because it got a lot of coverage in the mainstream media. But because of everyone sheltering in place, animal shelters across the country have been emptying out. Because of so many people adopting and fostering animals, which I think is just really wonderful. The shelters should be empty. So that’s a really wonderful thing to think about.
And there was a victory recently, a long and hard fought victory in Chicago. Chicago has banned horse drawn carriages. This is certainly a win for these poor horses who suffer and often end up dead in the streets, from carriage rides. And I really want to thank the activists who persisted and won this battle for horses. There are always activists behind these decisions. So that’s a good one, a nice win for Chicago and for the horses.
Okay, let’s see, for our next glimmer of hope story. This one actually I saw in National Geographic magazine, they have come out with a lifelike, realistic synthetic frog that is to be used as a cruelty free option for classroom dissection. It’s called the SynFrog, I guess for synthetic and you can take it apart all the inside and out, it’s very realistic, and all the little insides come out. At least it’s not a real frog. Every year over 3 million frogs are needlessly killed for science classes. And this leads to depletion of wild frog populations, and of course, inhumane attitudes towards living creatures for the children who are forced to participate in this spectacle. So let’s hope that SynFrog will be widely distributed and used into the future and classroom dissection will become a thing of the past.
So this next story, this one is just in, hot off the press. Activists have saved the life of Gerald the turkey. Gerald, the turkey lived in the Rose Garden in Oakland, California and has for many years, but recently for some reason he’s turned kind of aggressive and he’s been attacking people, men, women, children, even and sometimes drawing blood with his attacks. No one knows why that he has just suddenly become aggressive. It could be numerous things. It could be because of the pandemic there’s been a lot more people in the park. So maybe he just doesn’t like that. He could be protecting a partner that has eggs or chicks. We don’t know. He could have been tormented in some way by people. And, you know, messed with in some way, and now he’s fearful of humans. Whatever the case, the city had plans to capture and kill him. When neighbors got word of this, they rallied together and asked the officials if they could relocate Gerald, if they could, or if they could find activists that could and relocate him to an area without people. But unfortunately, it’s easier and cheaper and less resource intensive to just kill him. So that plan stood for weeks. And in that time, activists collected 6000 signatures on a petition. We at UPC distributed that petition to help gather signatures, they contacted the local news about Gerald’s plight, and just yesterday, the Department of Fish and Wildlife announced that they would be relocating Gerald to the Oakland Hills. So the pressure worked. And everyone’s voices were heard. And it’s really, really great news and a huge win for this turkey. And we wish Gerald the best in his new life in the Oakland Hills.
So okay, we’re going to wrap up our new glimmer of hope series with a couple of international stories. And I save these for last because I feel that they are really important and really hopeful. Two countries have recognized in law, non-human animal rights and sentience. And Islamabad High Court in Pakistan, recognized and affirmed the rights of non-human animals. This was around the case of an Asian elephant named Kaavan, I believe that’s how you pronounce it, it’s K-A-A-V-A-N. He was held in solitary confinement and misery at the zoo. And the court ordered the immediate release of Kaavan to an appropriate sanctuary where he would be with other elephants and have his physical and emotional needs taken care of. And in the ruling, there was recognition and affirmation of the rights of non-human animals. And I want to thank those advocates in Pakistan and those activists that fought for Kaavan ‘s release, there are always activists behind these wonderful decisions and moments. So thank you for staying strong and pushing for the release of Kaavan.
And the other international story I wanted to talk about, is in Australia, they recently updated their existing animal welfare laws by passing the animal welfare Legislation Amendment Bill, which states unequivocally that animals are sentient, possessing the ability to, “subjectively feel and perceive the world around the.” It updates the language to recognize that animals are sentient, and feel emotion and pain. It further recognizes that animals have, “intrinsic value, and deserve a quality of life that reflects that value,” stating that people have the duty to care for the, “mental welfare, as well as the physical well-being of animals.” This is extraordinary progress. And it really furthers that legal status of animals moving from property, mere property, to one that entitles the animals’ protection and even legal personhood. I would say also that this legislation recognizes speciesism. It acknowledges animals’ value, and their potential to suffer under oppression. I think it’s really fantastic. I hope that this legislation will set a precedent for other legislators and other countries to follow. And once again, I thank the advocates and activists who brought this to the legislature’s attention.
So that wraps up our new glimmer of hope segment. With all the bleak news in the world, I think it’s really good to know that there is some progress being made, good things are happening for animals and for the planet. Glimmers of hope, and it’s good to focus on them sometimes. I mean, I’m amazed how far we’ve come in the 30 years that I’ve been vegan, some things that I thought I would never see have happened that were just unbelievable to me, like Ringling Brothers circus closing, with recognition that the suffering of the animals was a large part of the reason. When I was organizing circus protests back in the 90s. I mean, we never thought that we would see that day. Another huge sign of progress is just how widely available vegan food is now, compared to when I went vegan 30 years ago. I mean, back then, if I wanted a cookie, I had to bake it. So good things are happening. Please know that animal liberation is achievable. And that things could happen even faster than we realize. So have a glimmer of hope.
Hope
Okay, I would like to bring on our guest now. I’m so excited to welcome Melanie Joy. She has a PhD. She’s a Harvard educated psychologist, organizational consultant, trainer, and relationship coach. She has written six books, award winning books. One is Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows: an Introduction to Carnism. This was her pinnacle book that we’re going to talk about in a little bit. Her latest book is Beyond Beliefs, a guide to improving relationships and communication for vegans, vegetarians and meat eaters. Dr. Joy has given her acclaimed carnism presentation and trained vegan advocates on six different continents. Her work has been featured in major media outlets around the world, as well as being recognized by numerous prestigious awards. And we are just so glad you could join us all the way from Germany. Thank you for being here Melanie Joy.
Melanie
Oh, thank you so much for having me, Hope. It’s really good to connect with you and be a part of this conversation.
Hope
Absolutely. So I want to start with your first book, which was really a groundbreaking book in the animal advocacy movement, where it really connected psychology into why we eat animals. And that was the book Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows. And you coined the term Carnism in this book, which is being used widely now in the movement. Please describe carnism. What it is, what’s the impact on how we see animals. And also if you want to a little bit about how you got into this work?
Melanie
Yeah, sure, actually, Why We Love Dogs is my second book. And it did emerge from my earlier work on strategy. My first book was Strategic Action for Animals.
Hope
Oh, ok.
Melanie
And I was very interested in strategic thinking. And I got into it, Why We Love Dogs really emerged even before Strategic Action for Animals. It was from my own life experience as a young girl and a young woman growing up. You know, like so many people I grew up with a dog who I love, I thought it was family member. And I of course grew up eating meat, eggs and dairy. And I was always a person who cared about animals. I mean, I would never want to do anything that would contribute to animal suffering. And yet, I also was eating animals like most people on a regular basis. And it wasn’t until 1989, when I got sick from eating a contaminated hamburger, I wound up in the hospital on intravenous antibiotics. I had this paradigm shift. I just stopped eating meat at that point. And shortly thereafter, I stopped eating meat, eggs and dairy as well. And it was because I had been so sick that I did not want to eat meat again, I was just disgusted by meat, and then you know, other animal products. And so I started learning about vegetarianism at the time. That was my new diet. This was 1989. So there was no internet yet. And I had to figure out how to cook for myself and what to buy. And of course, this search that I was on led me to information about animal agriculture. And what I learned, shocked and horrified me. I could not believe the extent of the exploitation essentially the suffering of farmed animals. I couldn’t believe was happening to the environment. This was before they even really knew how bad animal agriculture was for the environment. I started becoming aware of human health problems connected to consuming animals. So I was really shocked. But what shocked me in some ways even more was that nobody I talked to about what I was learning was willing to hear what I had to say. The response was pretty much always something like, Don’t tell me that, you’ll ruin my meal, or they call me a crazy vegan hippie propagandist. I was there was my friends and my family, they were rational people who were being totally irrational, and uncompassionate people who were obviously participating in something that was all but compassionate. So I became very curious as to what was going on psychologically, and how was it that rational, compassionate people, you know, like myself, could, including myself, because I had eaten animals my entire life, could just stop thinking and feeling when it came to this issue of eating animals.
And so this was really what drove me to study the psychology of violence and non-violence more broadly. And then specifically, to look at the psychology of eating animals. And that’s what I wrote my doctoral dissertation on. And in my research, what I discovered is that people don’t eat animals necessarily because they have to. I mean, some people actually cannot make their food choices freely. They are economically or geographically unable to do so. But many people eat animals, not because they have to, but because it’s the way things are, it’s what they’ve always done, it’s just a given rather than a choice. More specifically, many people eat animals, because they’ve been conditioned to believe that eating animals is the right thing to do. They don’t even recognize that there is an alternative. And this is what really led me to identify the belief system that I call Carnism.
Carnism is the invisible belief system that conditions us to eat certain animals. It’s essentially the opposite of veganism. You know, we tend to assume that only vegans and vegetarians follow a belief system, when it comes to eating animals. But when eating animals is not a necessity, then it’s a choice and choices always stem from beliefs. But this belief system of carnism, it’s a special kind of system, because carnism is organized around violence. It is organized in such a way that you know, like other systems of oppression, that it really violates, it causes us in order to support carnism, we really have to act against our core moral values of compassion, of justice and fairness. And most people would never, ever willingly support a system that causes such extensive intensive and completely unnecessary violence. So carnism needs to use a set of psychological defense mechanisms. These defense mechanisms essentially, distort our perceptions of meat, eggs, dairy, in the animals we eat, so that we can feel comfortable enough to consume them. We learn through carnism to disconnect from our natural empathy from those species we’ve learned to classify as edible.
Hope
Wow. Yeah, very powerful. And speaking of the paradigm of violence, and also what’s happening in the world right now, how is carnism similar to other isms, like racism and sexism? And also, I wanted to ask about the concept of speciesism, which is the, of course, the false assumption of human superiority over all other animals. And is that different from carnism? And are there instances where one should be used and not the other? What is the difference there? And how does that all relate?
Melanie
Well, in my book that I wrote last year, called Powerarchy: Understanding the Psychology of Oppression for Social Transformation, this book came out just after Beyond Beliefs. I talk about the common mentality that drives all forms of oppression. Now, I think it’s really important, however, that we not engage in comparing the experience of the victims of oppression. Because each set of victim’s experience is and will always be unique, you know, what it is to be a woman living under patriarchy is unique to each woman’s experience and women in general compared to when you when look at that in comparison with a person of color’s experience living under racism. So we need to be very careful not to compare the experience of the victims of oppression, because those experiences will always be unique.
What I can say, however, is that these systems of oppression are structured in a similar way. Whether it’s sexism, speciesism, racism, classism, carnism, or so forth, all of these systems share the same basic structure. And most importantly, they reflect the same essential mentality. The very same mentality that drives us to oppress or exploit humans, various human groups, is the mentality that drives us to oppress or exploited nonhumans and various non-human groups. This mentality is based on the belief in a hierarchy of moral worth, that certain individuals or groups are more worthy of moral consideration, that means of being treated with respect, essentially than others. And so it’s really important for us to pick out the common threads that are woven through all systems of oppression and to identify this mentality, or we’ll be doomed to simply recreate— trade one form of oppression for another.
So in my work, looking at carnism, I identified the system that I came to call carnism. But in some ways more important to me was actually unpacking that, really determining how this system is structured. How is it structured? How does it maintain itself? Which would help us recognize how to basically dismantle it, and all systems of oppression, are based on the same structure. And they all use the same types of psychological defense mechanism. So I’ll give you an example so this is not an abstraction for you or for listeners. On a psychological level, they’re organized around these psychological defense mechanisms that distort our perceptions, so that we disconnect from our natural empathy toward others. So let’s look at carnism as an example. One defense mechanism of carnism is abstraction. Or some people say de-individualization, it’s not seeing farmed animals as individuals. So we learn to believe that a pig is a pig and all pigs are the same. This is a psychological distancing mechanism. It makes it much easier to support or carry out violence toward someone when we don’t think of that someone as an individual with a life that matters to them with preferences, like we have, with a personality like we have, like our dog has. Another example of a defense mechanism is justification. You know, the way we learn to justify eating animals is by learning to believe that the myths of meat, eggs and dairy are the facts of meat, eggs, and dairy. We learned to believe in what I call the three ends of justification: eating animals is normal, natural, and necessary. And you know, of course, these same arguments have been used to justify violent practices throughout human history, and they prop up all sorts of systems of oppression. So in this way, these systems of oppression, which I refer to as powerarchies, in my book Powerarchy, they’re structured similarly, they’re based on the same mentality and systems of oppression, or problematic systems, right? They don’t have to just be social systems, they can be smaller systems. An abusive relationship, for example, is also based on the same mentality and uses the same psychological defense mechanisms. A dysfunctional workplace and or an abusive work culture also reflects this problematic mentality. You asked what the difference is between speciesism and carnism. Carnism is a sub ideology of speciesism. Like anti-semitism, for example, is a sub ideology of racism. So basically, speciesism informs carnism, just like racism informs anti-semitism. And of course, these systems of oppression also can intersect. It’s what intersectionality looks at, you know, to create a new form of oppression, so you can be a person of color, and you can also be a woman and if you’re both of these things, and you are a woman of color, your experience of oppression will be unique. It will be not exactly the same as that of a man of color or of a white woman.
Hope
I think that this kind of segues in to some of what you were talking about. Can you give examples? I know you’ve talked about carnistic defenses.
Melanie
Yeah, so the examples that I gave would be examples of carnistic defenses. So abstraction or justification, for example. Objectification, where again, speciesism, uses objectification as well. Objectification is seeing a being, perceiving a being, as an object as a thing. So we may not, for example, objectify our dog, we refer to our dog as him or her, he or she. And yet when we look at the chicken on our plate, we would refer to that chicken as something rather than someone. So this is a defense mechanism of objectification, perceiving an individual being as an object, as a thing.
Hope
So what can people who want to reduce their participation in carnism do? How can we be part of the solution?
Melanie
Well, I think an important step is awareness. Really becoming aware, not just of the reality of animal agriculture, but of the system that conditions us to believe that eating animals is legitimate and appropriate. I really believe it’s impossible to have a truly objective conversation about eating animals, if we’re having that conversation from within the very system that teaches us to believe that eating animals is essentially the right thing to do. So awareness of carnism is really important. Awareness of the defense mechanisms can be very helpful. We have a lot of information at carnism.org, for people who’d like to learn more about it. And when we become aware of carnistic defenses, they lose some of their power over us, it’s like when you become aware of your biases, you’re less likely to be influenced by those biases aren’t as powerfully influenced by those biases. And this is really important, because carnism is a dominant system. That means it’s institutionalized. It’s embraced and maintained by all of the major social institutions, from the family to the state. So when most people study nutrition, for example, they actually studied carnistic nutrition. And if we recognize, we understand, what carnism is, and we understand the various ways it gets manifested in the world, and in our own thinking, we are much better able to step outside of the system, to make choices, food choices that reflect what we authentically think and feel, rather than what we’ve been taught to think and feel.
For people who are already vegan, and who have already essentially stepped outside of the system of carnism, at least to some degree, we’re always continually influenced by it, because we’re living within it, you know? When you’re born into a dominant system, you essentially learn to look at the world through the lens of that system. But it’s very important for vegans to be aware of carnism as well, because carnism influences as vegans, it influences our perception of ourselves, our perception of our movement, and it also helps us when we recognize carnism, it helps us understand the psychology of people who we’re reaching out to. So we don’t engage, for example, in a battle of defenses, just coming back and fighting one justification with another. But we recognize that there’s a mentality at work here, a mentality that causes people to feel very defensive, against any challenges to their sense of entitlement to consume other animals.
Hope
Could give an example of that, because I would think that people who are vegan would say, well, I’m not carnist, I’m a vegan. How do vegans need to be aware of carnism?
Melanie
Well, as I was saying, one reason is because you if you don’t recognize carnism, you can make up a story, for example, that the people who are being so defensive against you, as a vegan, are doing so because they’re bad people, or they’re mean people, or they’re closed-minded people. But when you recognize that there’s a mentality that basically carnism is like an entity that’s hijacked their psyches, you can really recognize that good people participate in harmful practices, and it doesn’t make them bad people. You recognize this defensiveness as kind of a given. I mean, I expect it. So I’m not surprised by it, I don’t fight back against it. I don’t see people who eat animals as bad people. We can recognize carnistic defensiveness, the carnistic mentality, as one aspect of a person, it’s not who they are. We can relate to the person beneath the defenses, essentially bring our attention down to the level of relationships. Now, the other reason that it’s important for vegans to recognize carnism is because these narratives that are created by the dominant carnistic culture essentially do impact us in the way we perceive ourselves. So, I wrote in my book Beyond Beliefs, I wrote about a different kind of carnistic defenses that I wrote about in Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs and Wear Cows. I wrote about what I later came to call primary defenses and these are defenses that are structured to validate carnism. Basically, they maintain the idea that eating animals is the right thing to do. It’s legitimate. Systems like carnism keep themselves alive, essentially, by making sure that they stay stronger than the counter system that challenges them. In this case, it’s veganism. Right? So primary defenses basically strengthen the system of carnism. Secondary defenses are designed to weaken the counter system of veganism, and secondary defenses essentially teach us to believe the narrative of the myths that not eating animals is the wrong thing to do. Right? And secondary defenses are designed to invalidate veganism as an ideology, the vegan movement as a valid social justice movement, so we learn, for example, to think of the vegan movement as not a movement, it’s just a trend. Veganism is just a trend, it’s just a fad. Oh, and secondary defenses also exist to invalidate vegans. And they do this in large part by promoting negative stereotypes of vegans, it’s in a form of shoot the messenger. If you shoot the messenger, you don’t have to take seriously the implications of their message.
Hope
Yeah.
Melanie
So essentially, secondary defenses, basically make people, all defenses, they make people, non vegans, resist the very information that would help them get outside the carnistic box, they don’t even realize they’re in. So, for example, often vegans are framed as overly emotional animal-loving sentimentalist, and people who are overly emotional are by definition, not rational or not rational enough, and people who are not rational are not worth listening to. Of course, when you recognize the global atrocity that is carnism, you can appreciate that the emotions of grief and anger, moral outrage are actually normal, healthful, legitimate responses to this atrocity. Much more concerning is the widespread apathy and numbing of the dominant culture. But this stereotype, which by the way, has been used to discredit feminists and people challenging African slavery, abolitionists, many people over the years, this stereotype is something that many vegans also buy into. Vegans, and I have heard this from thousands of vegans, where they feel apologetic for their sensitivity. They feel ashamed of the fact that they, get upset or hurt or triggered when they’re with their family. And that’s because they’ve internalized this negative stereotype, this secondary defense that, oh, you’re vegan, you’re just overly emotional, and you’re just overreacting.
Hope
Yeah, it’s interesting, because I have found that over the years, because I’ve been vegan for 30 years myself, and I think though the reactions have changed and actually improved and gotten more positive. I mean, it used to be that nine times out of ten, the reaction I would get when someone learned I was vegan was negative, no matter what. It was either snarky or attacking in some way. Now, it seems like nine times out of ten people say things like, oh, well, I don’t eat much meat. Basically what they’re saying is, yeah, I agree, it’s the better thing to do. It’s probably what I should be doing. So I think that that it is improving. So are you hopeful that that things are improving in that realm?
Melanie
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And in different places in the world, in different places in each country. The movement is more or less developed, essentially. So, where you are in California, I mean, there’s no question. And, frankly, I traveled for a living, or at least I did before COVID. And I have had the privilege of really going all over the world, or, at least in many places. I’ve been to over 50 countries across six continents, and really worked with vegans quite closely all around the world. And there has not been a single exception to, that I have seen, to demonstrate that the vegan movement is growing. I mean, it’s really growing. Veganism is really taking off everywhere. And so that is very hopeful, that gives me a lot of hope.
Hope
Yeah. So I want to ask you about the concept of the humane hoax, the humane hoax, is all these alternative labels that we’re seeing: the small scale, free range, cage free, that kind of humane labeling. How does that relate to carnism?
Melanie
So when we think about this concept of so called humane meat, eggs and dairy, we can only appreciate the fact that the concept itself is essentially paradoxical or irrational when we step outside the carnistic box, right? So most people would consider it cruel to slaughter a happy, healthy golden retriever, just because people like the way her legs taste. But when the same thing is done to individuals of other species, we’re expected to consider this humane. And then when you consider the fact that this this dog, or this individual may have and probably did form friendships and bonds and connections with others who then have to grieve the loss of the animal who was killed, it becomes even more apparent that there really is no such thing as humane meat, eggs or dairy.
Hope
So I also want to ask you about your book, Beyond Beliefs. So why did you write this book and who is this book for?
Melanie
Well, I wrote Beyond Beliefs after I had been traveling for a number of years around the world giving talks and trainings to vegans, many, many, many vegans, around the world and I was hearing the same story from people who came to attend these talks, over and over again. And so many vegans were saying that becoming vegan was one of the most empowering and important choices of their lives. And yet, after they became vegan, they noticed that their relationships and communication were breaking down, essentially. And I became acutely aware that relationship and communication breakdown was really taking a toll on a number of people who are really siphoning the energy, essentially, out of a movement that needs all the help it can get. And research has shown that people in healthy, connected, fulfilling relationships, and I don’t mean just romantic relationships, all kinds of relationships, fair better in pretty much every aspect of life. They tend to live longer, they’re healthier, they’re happier, they’re more successful at what they do. So I had also been a long-time relationship coach. It’s my other hat, I have been a person that’s very interested in and working in this field of relationships and so it seemed really natural for me to merge my work as somebody who has been working with vegans and I think really understands vegan psychology and non-vegan psychology and relationships to write a book that would hopefully empower vegans to help cultivate relationships that would help sustain them. And also help them to become better ambassadors for the cause. So Beyond Beliefs is actually for vegans. It’s also for non-vegans who are in relationships with vegans. I have some chapters that are specifically for non-vegans to read to help them understand veganism and appendices in the book for vegans to just photocopy and give to the non-vegans in their lives to help open up communication.
Hope
Yeah, I think that’s so important. It’s a great book. It’s got flow charts in the back that take you through scenarios and how to best navigate conversations and relationships with non-vegans. It’s really wonderful. And I think it’s such an important aspect because we have a recidivism problem where people go back from being vegan to back to eating a carnistic diet. And so I think that’s part of the reason that some people do go back is that they don’t feel supported in their social circles.
Melanie
Yes, very much so. And a lot of vegans talk about feeling like they’re burning out because it’s just so hard to live in a dominant, carnistic culture and you say the same thing 30 different ways and it still doesn’t get through. You know? It’s so frustrating. And it’s already hard enough to be awake in a world, where so many people are asleep to this global atrocity of carnism and more broadly, speciesism. So if there was a way for me to help vegans navigate relationships so that they wouldn’t have the stress of the dominant culture follow them home and become the stress of their own homes. That was something I really wanted to try to support them around.
Hope
That’s great, and do you have any tips for effective communication?
Melanie
I have a whole chapter in the book on effective communication and its tailored specifically for vegans. I mean, some of what is in the book are basic principles and tools for healthy relating. And then there’s a lot that’s tailored specifically for like when you’re dealing with this particular difference in a relationship. I mean, one of things that’s most important to remember about communication. Communication is the primary way we relate. Right? So one of the things that’s most important to remember about communication is that the process of the communication matters more than the content of it. Now, all communication has these two parts: the content, which is what we’re communicating about, and the process, which is how we are communicating. The process matters more. Like if you think about a conversation, for example, that you had, say you had this conversation a month ago, or six months ago. You might have forgotten entirely the content. You don’t even remember what you talked about. But you probably still remember how you felt in that conversation. The process tends to determine how we feel. When your process is healthy, you can talk about anything without arguing. And when your process is unhealthy, you can’t talk about anything without arguing. I mean, you see these people can be on totally on the same page, and they’ll still find a way to argue with each other. A healthy process has as its goal, to connect.
Essentially its mutual understanding. Right? The only reason we use communication is because we’re not telepathic. So our communication is our way of sharing our thoughts and feelings and understanding another’s thoughts and feelings. So the goal of communication, when it’s healthy, is to understand and be understood. It is not to win. Which means to make the other person lose. It is not to be right. Very often, we get caught up, especially when there’s a difference in a relationship, a difference of opinion, we get caught up in debate mode. And we’re trying so hard to convince the other person of what’s right. That we forget that underneath our differences, there is a relationship between people. And that relationship is where our attention needs to be. And our attention more specifically needs to be, how do we connect with this other individual? How can we be present to hearing and understanding, really understanding their inner world? As long as their inner world doesn’t, offend us, you know, they’re not describing a hunting expedition, or something. How do we really understand their inner world and how do we really help them understand our inner world? And as vegans, one of the things that’s really important for us to appreciate is that advocating in our close personal relationships is generally not a good idea. We really often try to turn those around us who are closest to us vegan because we assume that that’s going to solve a lot of the problems in our relationship. Sometimes it does, often it doesn’t. However, very often the people who are closest to us are the hardest for us to actually reach for a number of reasons. I mean, sometimes it’s just long-standing power struggles that get in the way. Very often it’s because the other person is not ready to take in the information and, or not ready to make this kind of a change.
So, what we can ask of the people in our lives rather than go vegan, is “Can you please be a vegan ally?” Everybody needs to know that the people in their life are allies to them. If you’re in a relationship, we can communicate with people in our lives and say, look, I really would appreciate being able to share information about veganism with you. I really need you to understand what this belief system is and why it matters to me so deeply. Not because I’m trying to turn you vegan, but so you understand me. Because if you don’t really understand me in this way we’re never really going to be able to connect.
Hope
Yeah. It’s so important. I often tell people when they first go vegan just to really be not as hopeful about family, and especially not close family.
Melanie
Right.
Hope
and close coworkers and friends because you don’t realize that even though they are loving individuals that you think would care, there’s so much of the dynamic relationship that is going to unfortunately possibly block any positive communication and potential for them to going vegan. So it’s so important, the work you’re doing to help us to be good communicators. It’s so important. What do you hope that your book, Beyond Beliefs will accomplish in the end?
Melanie
For one, I hope it will be a useful tool for vegans. And the feedback that I’ve gotten so far is that is has been. To really help vegans feel more grounded in their choices. Really understand their struggle better. Really improve their ability to communicate and relate with people who are either not vegan or vegans who don’t think the same way about veganism that they do. There are plenty of problems in that department as well. I also hope that it will help non-vegans really start to more fully appreciate the vegans in their lives and appreciate veganism even if they’re not vegan themselves yet.
I do hope that this book will help raise the level of relational literacy which is the understanding of and ability to practice healthy ways of relating among vegans. And I hope that it will help vegans to practice having more sustainable lives as they do this really important work and move through this world. My newest book is actually called, Getting Relationships Right. It’s for anybody who wants to develop their relational literacy. And it’s a book for vegans who have people in their lives who may not be receptive or open to a book that actually is about relating to vegans or veganism but is a person who is interested in improving their own relationships. Getting Relationships Right could be an alternative because the nice thing about relational literacy, is that when you improve your relational literacy, all of your relationships get better including your relationships with non-human beings. You became a more open minded, empathic and compassionate human being in general.
Hope
So, we just have a few more minutes. Do you have any final thoughts? And how can people support your work?
Melanie
Yeah well thank you. I am constantly inspired by and in admiration of people who are working to make the world a better place. And I was listening to you talk about how you’ve had to kind of scramble and figure out how to do the work that you do now without being able to travel and do live events. And you are being innovative and starting a podcast. And you’ve got listeners who are asking these same questions. How can I keep participating in creating a better world. It really inspires me. So my final thoughts are to thank you, Hope, for what you do, and to the people listening to this who are listening because they care about their impact and you are all the reason that there’s any hope for us as a planet. So thank you.People who want to learn more can come to carnism.org. It’s all about carnism and they can also visit my own website Melanie Joy.org.
Hope
Wonderful. Thank you so much, Melanie. It’s been a wonderful conversation.
Melanie
Thank you, Hope.
Hope
Thank you for listening to the Hope for the Animals podcast. I hope you enjoyed hearing from Melanie Joy. Her work is so inspiring. And I also hope you that liked the new Glimmer of Hope segment that I want to do periodically. If you hear of a positive story for animals that we can share on the podcast, please send it to me at hope at UPC – online.org.
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Please have hope for a better world for animals and live vegan.
